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BGonline.org Forums
Wrong double rule
Posted By: Tom Keith In Response To: Wrong double rule (phil simborg)
Date: Thursday, 6 March 2014, at 4:25 p.m.
Phil, this has been discussed here many times before. Wouldn't it be helpful to summarize some of the prior discussion before jumping in again?
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Sonrik: Let's say a player A is 2-away and player B is 3-away. player A owns the cube. Is player A ALLOWED to redouble? what happens if he unfortunately does?
Daniel Murphy: I think the consensus is that Rule 5.6 does not apply since at 2-away 3-away a 2-cube is not high enough to ensure that either players will win the game and match. So leader is allowed to redouble and trailer can (must) take (but can't drop).
Michael Petch: I would like to see the adoption of rules that are more in line of the standard definition of "dead cube". Something like this (with some polishing) should work:
5.6 DEAD CUBE. When the cube level is high enough for the person on turn to win the match. A player with a dead cube must play the game to conclusion at the current cube level.This also handles the situation where the player leading post-crawford shouldn't be able to turn the cube.
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Barry Silliman: Phil, is rule 5.6 in your sights to re-word? Because as it is currently written, it is essentially meaningless.
5.6 DEAD CUBE. When the cube level is high enough to ensure that the match will end with the current game, that game shall be played to conclusion at the present cube level."I believe that the spirit of the rule is such that if Player A is leading 2-away, 5-away and holding a 2 cube, it is DEAD. But a strict interpretation of 5.6 doesn't hold, since the match will not end with the current game if Player B wins (barring winning a backgammon).
Something should be added or tweaked, e.g. "If a player holds the cube and the cube level is high enough to ensure that he will win the match if he wins the current game, that game shall be played to conclusion at the present cube level."
Trying to get something definitive for the unfortunate case where Player A absent-mindedly ships the cube to 4. Oops! Not that this would ever happen in real life.
Daniel Murphy: I forward a rules change suggestion from a BGO reader who prefers not to be a BGO writer. Taking Barry's wording as a start, the suggestion seems to be to replace the "dead cube" rule with an "illegal cube play" rule:
Illegal cube play:1. Any attempt to use the cube during the Crawford game.
2. If a player has access to the cube and the cube level is high enough to ensure that he will win the match if he wins the current game, then that player cannot cube in the current game.
Bob Koca: It is not at all meaningless. It prevents someone from winning at 2a 2a by cubing to 4 and getting a drop. At the same time it prevents someone from doing a pipcount, then cubing to 4 to get the delay back. I am not sure the spirit of the rule is what you said.
Gregg Cattanach: Bob is correct. This rule deals only with the situation that Bob described. It doesn't address (and didn't attempt to) the problem at 2-away, 5-away, for example.
Tom Keith: The purpose of this rule is to prevent cube actions whose only purpose is to set the opponent up for an accidental misplay.
You could make a rule that goes further, maybe something like this:
When the cube level is high enough for the on-roll player to win the match, that player may not double.
But is it really necessary?
The first rule is a good idea because it avoids bad feelings between the players. Many players believe it is not in the spirit of the game to set your opponent up for what is essentially a mechanical error. The second rule just protects you from yourself.
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Rod Covlin: Player A is 2a and owns the 2 cube. He recubes to 4. Legal or illegal?
Tom Keith: It depends on the opponent's score. Here is what the Dead Cube rule says:
5.6 DEAD CUBE. When the cube level is high enough to ensure that the match will end with the current game, that game shall be played to conclusion at the present cube level.
If Player B is more than 2 away, then the current cube level of 2 is not high enough to ensure the match will end, and the recube is legal. (Player B would be wise to take.)
Daniel Murphy: It seems crystal clear to me that this cube is legal, unless the opponent is 2a or 1a. Under Rules 5.4, 5.5 and 5.6, a player may double when it his turn (and, not spelled out, when he has cube access), except when Rule 5.5 or 5.6 applies. Neither of them applies.
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Stick: It should be clarified that a person may not recube when he owns the cube and the value of the cube would put him out (make him the winner of the match) but not his opponent.
Gregg Cattanach: This rule does NOT address that situation; reread the rule and you'll see this is clear. It only addresses the dead cube in effective DMP situations. If I am 2-away and my opponent is 4-away and I hold a 2-cube, my redouble can be accepted and is not invalid.
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Rod Covlin: In FL someone owned the 2 cube and turned it to 4 when up 11-10 in a 13 point match. The leader realized after he set it down. The opponent took it and the match continued. The leader probably knew he had a shot at getting this overturned.
How do we feel about this? Do people not have any responsibility to pay attention?
Michael Petch:
"5.6 DEAD CUBE. When the cube level is high enough to ensure that the match will end with the current game, that game shall be played to conclusion at the present cube level."
The technicality here is that the person who already is leading is allowed to recube (with the score 3away-2away) since the person trailing can win the match on a 4 cube if he takes. If he drops (see below) the match is over. Either way the match is insured to be over on the current game.
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neilkaz: Suppose at 1-7/9 you cube and he takes..can the guy then recube even though he needs only 2 pts, and if he does recube can you turn it back to 8? I am unsure what the rule is here, but am under the impression that the cube is dead once he takes it on 2. ie he cannot turn it higher noting that he cannot win the match if you space out and drop it.
Robert Maier: As far as dealing with the situation where a player passes a cube and that pass would give his opponent enough points to win the match, I turn for solace to the WBA rules.
#4.4.3 ACCEPTING/PASSING A DOUBLE. edited...... After a pass the scoreboard is updated and the next game is started. .....edited
so I would argue that if a pass would result in there being no next game it must be canceled. Of course if you are going to consult the WBA rules you have to read another rule the way you want.
4.5 Completion
All games and matches must be played to the end, unless brought to an end by the pass of a double or a player running out of time, if the match is played using a game clock. A player with no contact can accept the loss of a single point, a gammon or backgammon, though. Except for this situation the players are not allowed to agree on the outcome of points, of a game or a match. All matches must be played to the appointed number of points. Violation of this rule may result in disqualification of one or both players. In special cases the players involved may be temporarily barred from future tournaments.
So you sort of have to decide that only games are being ended by the pass of a double and not matches. You could also argue with more or less of a straight face that "the players are not allowed to agree on the outcome of.....a match" is being violated if someone is allowed to pass the match away.
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