[ View Thread ] [ Post Response ] [ Return to Index ] [ Read Prev Msg ] [ Read Next Msg ]

BGonline.org Forums

Backgammon Dice are NEVER precision dice

Posted By: Phil Simborg
Date: Thursday, 25 August 2016, at 3:44 p.m.

In Response To: Backgammon Dice are NEVER precision dice (Albert Steg)

I will answer you point by point:

"Phil, you make a very slippery slide from "precision" to "fairness" here -- just because precision aren't absolutely "precise" does not mean they are not "fair." I would argue they remain fair unless the biases of the dice are (1) substantial enough to substantively affect the outcomes of games in the reasonably short term, (2) the advantages of the dice are reserved to only one of the players and/or (3) the bosses are fully understood by one player and not the other."

I never said that precision dice, as we know them are unfair. I simply pointed out facts about those dice, that they do have biases and they are not truly "precision" by the standards set by the gaming industry and the dice manufacturers themselves. And I did not do this to discredit the use of the dice, only to point out, to those who claim that electronic dice are inferior to precision dice in this area, that they do not have all the fact.

"Just to be clear about the scale of the "problem" you are raising, are you asserting that you have a pair of serviceable precision dice that you have analyzed and which exhibit a bias substantial enough that you would alter your play based on them?"

I never said I would alter my play, but I do say that if someone happens to have a set of really skewed precision dice and they knew about it, they certainly could alter their play and possibly get an advantage. So there is a risk with our current, rounded dice, just as there is a risk with anything.

"Your assertion that there is a problem here substantial enough to impel people to go toward electronic dice without providing data or at least conveying the degree of variation from ideal randomness comes off as disingenuous."

I have never said anything to try to "impel" people to switch to electronic dice, and I doubt in my lifetime that will ever be the case. I do believe electronic dice can be a great aid for people with impairments, good for travel, and also, some people, like me, might enjoy hearing the dice, having a record of the rolls, and not dealing with the problems of real dice. No one has said anything about requiring the use of electronic dice, however, if there is a blind person or someone with physical disabilities, if I were the tournament director, and I was confident that there was a good electronic program that was NOT provided by either of the two participants, I would absolutely require the players to use it, and if you or someone would not accommodate a sight-imparied or physically impaired person in this situation, I would simply give you the choice of forfeitting the match. I am not saying what other tournament directors should do...that's not up to me.

"Just because you are (currently) offering this app for free does not mean you do not perceive a gain from the movement toward electronic dice. Your appetite for attention and being seen as a trend-setter is apparently insatiable."

I had nothing to do with the development of this app. It was done by the P40 team and they asked me to announce it and be their spokesperson as I am involved with the organization. But yes, I do like to be a trendsetter. I am proud of that. If you don't like it, sorry. I see nothing wrong with discussing and offering new ideas and, many of them have been implemented around the globe. (I won't list them all, because I am so modest.)

"You claim to do everything for "the good of the game." What purpose is truly served by promoting the notion that popular, quality backgammon equipment is "not on the level," and by implication unfair?"

I NEVER claimed that I do everything for the good of the game. I make a living teaching backgammon, selling products, and promoting my products and I never pretended otherwise. But I do many things for the good of the game, and anything I do I try to see that it doesn't hurt the game. I believe a dice roller that helps people and that might provide even fairer rolls than we have now certainly is not bad for the game and is very good for many.

"Whatever stats you show me, I will never, ever want to play with an electron app that you or anyone else brings to a game. The opportunities for it to be 'fixed' in some way is just so plainly easy to imagine. If people have gone to the lengths of building physical boards with magnetic systems designed to manipulate fixed dice, how much more likely are they to tinker with electronic systems that are wholly invisibly to physical inspection?"

I agree that electronics can be fixed, but they can also be checked, as, for one thing, there is a record of the rolls and you can keep your own records to see if they are fair. Also, if you have concerns about playing with an app, that it might be fixed, I would think that if the app is on the tournament director's phone, or a neutral person's phone, or on the phone of someone you trust, you would have few concerns. When you sit down and play with someone and use their dice you are trusting they are not loaded dice or not skewed. Same thing with the app.

"You are outspoken in coaching beginners that "Cheating" is one of the major factors contributing to success in backgammon. What better way to cheat than this?"

I believe people should be aware that cheating is possible and should be aware of it, and I teach that to all my students. I even tell them how people might cheat and how to watch out for it. But I have NEVER said that cheating is one of the major factors contributing to success in backgammon. That is a false statement. I think very few people cheat, and the few that have have mostly been caught, and I don't think there are very many cases of anyone being successful as a result of cheating. I also believe that there is LESS chance to be cheated using someone's neutral app on their phone than there is with dice. However, regardless of whether you use real dice or electronic dice, I don't think cheating is much of an issue here. You, and a couple of others have raised it as an issue. Having fair dice and true random rolls is not about cheating, its about having a good, fair game, and yes, a few twisted people might try to find a way to used really bad dice or to hack an app, but I think that is very rare and not at all the issue.

Now, to the bigger issue. Your comments are NOT directed toward the issues and the facts. They are personal attacks on me, and EVEN IF YOU WERE RIGHT about me in every way and didn't misquote me, that does not change the facts about real dice, electronic dice, and the benefits or negatives of both. And that is what should be debated and discussed. Attacking the messenger is unfair and off topic. You obviously have a problem with me, and I understand that. You are not the only one who has suspicions about my motives when I come out for things that I believe are good for the game but I am also in business to make money from backgammon. That is primarily why I refused to be an offer of the USBGF and stepped down from any official role there.

I see no conflict of interest so long as I am up front and honest about who I am and what I do, and I have always been that. I started clubs in schools and the International Collegiate Program to help grow the game. I not only did not and do not make any money for this, it costs me a tremendous amount of time and effort and personal expense. I believe this is good for the game, and most importantly, NOBODY ELSE was taking the initiative and doing these things.

As a result of these and other things I have done to volunteer my time I certainly have become more well-known as a teacher, and I am sure I have gotten students or sold boards because I was better known or more respected for my efforts to grow the game. What's wrong with that (unless I was dishonest about it)?

You know, there are people that get out there and do things, like me, and Mochy, and many others who have done a lot of great things to promote the game, and there are people, like you, who do nothing but tear people down and criticize. I only wish I was better at ignoring people like you, but unfortunately, you do it publicly and I feel compelled to defend myself when attacked so unfairly. What your motivation is, I have no idea, but I suggest you use your time and energy to do some things yourself to help promote the game and make it better for others instead of spewing negativity and making false statements.

Messages In This Thread

 

Post Response

Your Name:
Your E-Mail Address:
Subject:
Message:

If necessary, enter your password below:

Password:

 

 

[ View Thread ] [ Post Response ] [ Return to Index ] [ Read Prev Msg ] [ Read Next Msg ]

BGonline.org Forums is maintained by Stick with WebBBS 5.12.