| |
BGonline.org Forums
Dell Intel Quad Core w/monitor for $679
Posted By: Keene In Response To: Dell Intel Quad Core w/monitor for $679 (Frank Berger)
Date: Monday, 19 May 2008, at 10:22 p.m.
Frank: First of all, I'm not very interested in a flame war.
Keene: I am not starting a flame war. I am in a position whereby I get to work closely with Windows & Macs. My opinion is all that I am stating here. The company I work at respects my opinion so much that I am in charge of the IT Infrastructure. I appreciate that Macs are great for some people, not for others. I am not alone in my opinion, just do a search on the web regarding the long term future for Mac security, and you will find countless people reiterating the exact same thing.
Frank: Well I really don't get the difference to a BOD. Both are dead. And yes all Unices (AFAIK) have a panic system call, but what does that prove? That OS X can crash? Sure it can. Try a logitech driver (their OS X drivers are notorioulsy crappy) and you'll experience one sooner or later. But this is not different to any other operating system for desktops when you install a crappy driver.
Keene: Drivers will always have problems. Fewer so for windows. Its simply a case of numbers. Windows is the 80% dominant OS, so when writing drivers, its much smarter to make sure 80% of users have working drivers first. Regarding the BlueScreen stuff, yes its just a kernel panic, but equally, it is easier to troubleshoot on a PC than a MAC. This is my experience.
Frank: That and the varying degrees of networking availability to windows networks (Still the primary network core globally). I have Mac, Windows XP/Vista, Ubuntu and PCBSD on my desk. All run smb and no problems at all. I admit I have a pretty simple environment, there maybe problems with AD, no idea.
Keene: I refer entirely to networking with AD. Do you know how to make a Leopard network to a windows server? Switch off the apple networking component (Bonjour). Hard fact. Why would apple make a product that they tout for corporate environments that wont talk to Windows Server without switch off Bonjour? Its crazy. SMB1.0 (Networking for beginners: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Message_Block). Check it out. 16bit traffic? Full network broadcast? Just flood it!
Frank: I had crashes with earlier releases with a ISDN driver. It was as difficult as following the stack trace in an text file.
Frank: What does that prove? That some guys are stressing the specs? does all W98 or even XP SW run on Vista? So where is the point? And I feel supporting two HW platforms is a challenging task and I think they made a pretty good job.
Keene: That proves that Apple hardware and software is not so robust as to support a changing environment (necessary in Windows s/w). It means that writing for specific hardware and software is not a sustainable practise. It also meant that (in this example) any adobe CS user was not going to get his CS working on his newest mac. Not good.
Frank: At this point I really don't care why my Macs are safe, I just care that they are safe (the same as my Linux or PCBSD boxes).
Keene: The why's are the most important part! Its safe only because the hackers devote their time to the 80% windows environments. Its not safe because Apple make great safe software - they dont! Again, this is easily researched. Oh, and same thing for the 'nix's too. As soon as they get a larger market share, the hackers will turn on them, and all hell will be let loose. Who will fix the 'nix holes? The 'nix communities? Dont see it.
Frank: Would you agree, that there is much more reason to have a polished AV product with automatic updates on WIndows than on OS X? AV software on a Mac is pretty much like snake oil currently (unless you want to catch Windows-malware for obvious resons)
Keene: Yes, agreed, windows is targetted significantly more, its required to have a good defense mechanism, but why is it the worlds #1 security company has so hard a time auto-updating Macs? Windows, its updated daily for me, I dont have to do a thing, its easy. The Mac OS is simply not robust enough in its infrastructure to allow for ease of updating. In short, I agree with you, for different reasons though.
Frank: That might be the case, time will tell. (re more hacks in future)
Keene: Dont believe me, check it out. Plenty of news and technology articles detail it.
Frank: As for basic security? Use a firewall router with NAT at the very least. This helps against open ports and is advisable, agreed. But this is IIRC not the predominant malware today. Besides the celebrity_of-your_choice_naked.exe where active cooperation is needed (and OS X would be exactly as vulnerable, if there would come up the matching programs) you have a lot of drive-by-downloads and in the last time not only on dubios sites but on serious sites too (cross-site-scripting). You're probably not fluent in German, otherwise I recommend the latest issue of the IT-magazine c't (it is something in Germany what the Byte earlier was in the US).
Keene: Sure. Mac users are just as vulnerable as Windows users to it. Drive by downloads are another targetted hacker facility. As soon as Macs become more software friendly, then macs will be hit just like windows are.
None of your "I just plug my mac in, and im safe on the internet" crap please. Frank: I would prefer a more relaxed mode of discussion, otherwise I think I can spend my time with more useful things. AFAIK no single malware is in the wild for OS X. There has been two cases with roughly 50 boxes infected in the recent years. That's the current state of reality so currently I'm absolutely safe with a Mac. Not in theory, there are vulnerabilities, but in practise I'm safe. If you regard this as "crap" I would be very interested which real threats I overlook.
Keene: Just numbers. Read: http://db.tidbits.com/article/9511
Frank: One of my friends manages a network of OS X machines in a bank. He tells me different things, but he might face a different situation. From my personal experience: OS X is the system where I have to spend the least time greasing the fittings and this experience is shared by a couple of switchers I know personally. This ranges from people having no ideas at all about computers to IT professionals. Your experience might be different and your demands are probably very different, therefore I'm interested in things I overlook.
Keene: I am speaking directly here, not 'through a friend'. In relative terms, your 'friend' reports to me. I am not in a banking environment, I am in a retail one. A very large retail one. Greasing the fittings is more about setting up things properly from the start, so we dont have that problem. When a Mac goes down though, its more often than not a complete rebuild, rather than a repair.
Finally - and I believe this is not the forum to be having the windows vs Macs debate - I am in no way trying to offend you or your beliefs. For every single argument for using a mac over windows, I can give you two going the opposite way. I am just saying that I believe Macs to be inferior in many ways to windows, for many reasons. That may change over time, and to be honest, I welcome the day that I change my mind about Macs. I will not close the door on that OS, I hope it improves. Today, its just not good enough for me, or for 90% of my organization.
Keene
PS: I do enjoy the Mac vs PC ads over here in the US. Check them out on the apple site if you havent seen them already. http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
| |
BGonline.org Forums is maintained by Stick with WebBBS 5.12.