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3 ply vs. 2 ply again

Posted By: Matt Cohn-Geier
Date: Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:31 p.m.

In Response To: 41$ 11? (longish) (neilkaz)

Reposting the rollouts I conducted awhile ago.

Conclusion:

0/2 beats 0/3 (lost this one).
2/2 beats 2/3.
3/3 beats 2/2.
3/2 beats 2/2.
3/2 beats 3/3.

So, since all rollouts indicate that 3-ply checker is better and 2-ply cube is better, it would seem like 3/2 is best.

These rollouts were done on relatively slow machines so if someone wants me to conduct an extension or to do one himself it wouldn't be too hard.

The score (after 0 games) is: 2-2ply 0, 2-3ply 0

Move number 3: 2-2ply to play 21

2-2ply	170
2-3ply	167
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: MAEFAAAAAAAA

• 2-2ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0520
			0.4839 0.1332 0.0058 - 0.5161 0.1493 0.0066 -0.0492 -0.0520 0.0005 0.0005 0.0001 - 0.0005 0.0005 0.0002 0.0012 0.0030
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			17803 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 830542682
			Player 0:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			Player 1:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]

The score (after 0 games) is: 2-2ply 0, 2-3ply 0

Move number 3: 2-3ply to play 12

2-2ply	167
2-3ply	170
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: cIkIAAAAAAAA

• 2-3ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0610
			0.4905 0.1360 0.0060 - 0.5095 0.1459 0.0067 -0.0297 -0.0610 0.0005 0.0005 0.0002 - 0.0005 0.0005 0.0001 0.0013 0.0033
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			16513 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 830489112
			Player 0:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			Player 1:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]

The score (after 0 games) is: 2ply 0, 3ply 0

Move number 4: 3ply to play 43

2ply	167
3ply	174
Position ID: 4HPwATDgOfgBMA Match ID: cAkOAAAAAAAA

• 3ply moves 13/6

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	13/6	-0.0534
			0.4920 0.1353 0.0058 - 0.5080 0.1448 0.0066 -0.0264 -0.0534 0.0005 0.0005 0.0001 - 0.0005 0.0005 0.0002 0.0011 0.0032
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			14652 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 830759193
			Player 0:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			Player 1:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]

The score (after 0 games) is: 2ply 0, 3ply 0

Move number 5: 2ply to play 21

2ply	170
3ply	167
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: MAEFAAAAAAAA

• 2ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0684
			0.4813 0.1317 0.0057 - 0.5187 0.1489 0.0067 -0.0556 -0.0684 0.0006 0.0006 0.0002 - 0.0006 0.0007 0.0002 0.0014 0.0040
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			8872 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 837317894
			Player 0:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			Player 1:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]

The score (after 0 games) is: 3-2ply 0, 2-2ply 0

Move number 3: 3-2ply to play 21

3-2ply	170
2-2ply	167
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: MAEFAAAAAAAA

• 3-2ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0574
			0.4876 0.1327 0.0056 - 0.5124 0.1458 0.0067 -0.0390 -0.0574 0.0004 0.0005 0.0001 - 0.0004 0.0005 0.0001 0.0011 0.0028
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			15423 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 835067560
			Player 0:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			Player 1:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]

The score (after 0 games) is: 3-2ply 0, 2-2ply 0

Move number 5: 2-2ply to play 21

3-2ply	167
2-2ply	170
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: cAkFAAAAAAAA

• 2-2ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0677
			0.4855 0.1329 0.0056 - 0.5145 0.1463 0.0075 -0.0444 -0.0677 0.0005 0.0005 0.0001 - 0.0005 0.0006 0.0003 0.0014 0.0034
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			14674 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 835198424
			Player 0:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			Player 1:
			Play: world class 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]

The score (after 0 games) is: 3-3ply 0, 3-2ply 0

Move number 3: 3-2ply to play 12

3-3ply	167
3-2ply	170
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: cIkIAAAAAAAA

• 3-2ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0523
			0.4840 0.1318 0.0056 - 0.5160 0.1481 0.0068 -0.0494 -0.0523 0.0004 0.0004 0.0001 - 0.0004 0.0005 0.0001 0.0009 0.0024
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			15051 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 836694243
			Player 0:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			Player 1:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]

The score (after 0 games) is: 3-3ply 0, 3-2ply 0

Move number 3: 3-3ply to play 21

3-3ply	170
3-2ply	167
Position ID: 4HPwATDgM/IBMA Match ID: MAEFAAAAAAAA

• 3-3ply moves 11/8

#		Ply	Move	Equity
•	1	R	11/8	-0.0602
			0.4906 0.1349 0.0057 - 0.5094 0.1449 0.0066 -0.0298 -0.0602 0.0004 0.0005 0.0001 - 0.0004 0.0005 0.0001 0.0010 0.0027
			Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
			14559 games, rollout as initial position, Mersenne Twister dice generator with seed 836035260
			Player 0:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			Player 1:
			Play: grandmaster 3-ply cubeful prune [grandmaster]
			keep the first 0 0-ply moves and up to 8 more moves within equity 0.16
			Skip pruning for 1-ply moves.
			keep the first 0 2-ply moves and up to 2 more moves within equity 0.04
			Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]

Messages In This Thread

• Replies to opening 41 where oppenent slots, 13/9 6/5
  ectonomo -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 4:27 p.m.
  • Replies to opening 41 where oppenent slots, 13/9 6/5
    Jason Lee -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 4:45 p.m.
  • Replies to opening 41 where oppenent slots, 13/9 6/5
    Keene -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 5:20 p.m.
    • Replies to opening 41 where oppenent slots, 13/9 6/5
      ectonomo -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 5:32 p.m.
      • Replies to opening 41 where oppenent slots, 13/9 6/5
        Matt Cohn-Geier -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 6:03 p.m.
        • and then there was...ExtremeGammon
          rummer1973 -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 8:24 p.m.
          • PS: Phil Simborg
            rummer1973 -- Tuesday, 28 July 2009, at 8:26 p.m.
  • 41$ 11? (longish)
    neilkaz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 1:55 p.m.
    • 41$ 11? (longish)
      Stick -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 3:01 p.m.
      • 41$ 11? (longish)
        neilkaz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:14 p.m.
        • 3 ply vs. 2 ply again
          Matt Cohn-Geier -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:31 p.m.
          • 3 ply vs. 2 ply again
            neilkaz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:50 p.m.
    • 41$ 11? (longish)
      Rich Munitz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:21 p.m.
      • 41$ 11? (longish)
        neilkaz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:37 p.m.
    • 1000 rollouts 3 ply play=very clear
      neilkaz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:22 p.m.
      • Oops didn't realize had truncated turned on..LOL
        neilkaz -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 4:29 p.m.
    • 41$ 11? (longish)
      Michael Depreli -- Thursday, 27 August 2009, at 2:39 p.m.
  • See this article
    Paul Vianna -- Friday, 31 July 2009, at 3:08 p.m.