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BGonline.org Forums
Multiple rollouts + remarks by Stick
Posted By: Timothy Chow In Response To: How much should you trust 3-ply/XGR? (Timothy Chow)
Date: Tuesday, 4 July 2023, at 12:10 a.m.
You can read the original rec.games.backgammon thread on Google Groups. I posted the rollout below, with the following comments: "O's timing might not look that bad, but one needs a lot of timing to play a 12-backgame. O's main hope here is for X to roll big right away. XG says that if X rolls something like 51, then he loses his market. Given that, it makes sense to double now."
White is Player 2
score: 0
pip: 162Unlimited Game pip: 83
score: 0
Blue is Player 1XGID=-bbBBBFB-A--a-a--a-bbbb---:0:0:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 Blue on roll, cube action?
Analyzed in Rollout No double Double/Take Player Winning Chances: 64.91% (G:30.82% B:4.12%) 64.69% (G:30.49% B:4.23%) Opponent Winning Chances: 35.09% (G:1.52% B:0.05%) 35.31% (G:1.54% B:0.06%) Cubeless Equities +0.632 +1.250 Cubeful Equities No double: +0.836 (-0.105) ±0.011 (+0.825..+0.847) Double/Take: +0.941 ±0.021 (+0.920..+0.961) Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.059) Best Cube action: Double / Take Rollout details 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG RollerDouble Decision confidence: 100.0% Take Decision confidence: 100.0% Duration: 4 minutes 09 seconds eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
After I posted the above rollout, Stick remarked, "This is a much bigger take than 3 ply/XGR would suggest." Stick often regards a 0.020 equity difference as big, so that's what I assumed he meant here. Sure enough, my XGR+ rollout below indicates a bigger take (though of course there's still some variance in both rollouts).
White is Player 2
score: 0
pip: 162Unlimited Game pip: 83
score: 0
Blue is Player 1XGID=-bbBBBFB-A--a-a--a-bbbb---:0:0:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 Blue on roll, cube action?
Analyzed in Rollout No double Double/Take Player Winning Chances: 64.71% (G:30.74% B:4.11%) 64.46% (G:30.48% B:4.11%) Opponent Winning Chances: 35.29% (G:1.59% B:0.06%) 35.54% (G:1.61% B:0.06%) Cubeless Equities +0.626 +1.237 Cubeful Equities No double: +0.841 (-0.079) ±0.006 (+0.835..+0.846) Double/Take: +0.920 ±0.011 (+0.909..+0.931) Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.080) Best Cube action: Double / Take Rollout details 2592 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves and cube decisions: XG Roller+
Search interval: LargeDouble Decision confidence: 100.0% Take Decision confidence: 100.0% Duration: 8 hours 29 minutes eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
Stick followed up by saying, "Sorry but my own rollout which is ++/++ gigantic has this being worth +0.890." Intrigued, I did my own XGR++ Gigantic rollout, but was not able to corroborate Stick's result. Perhaps Stick can post his rollout here so that we can compare results. It would be pretty interesting to me to see such a big difference between two separate XGR++ Gigantic rollouts.
White is Player 2
score: 0
pip: 162Unlimited Game pip: 83
score: 0
Blue is Player 1XGID=-bbBBBFB-A--a-a--a-bbbb---:0:0:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 Blue on roll, cube action?
Analyzed in Rollout No double Double/Take Player Winning Chances: 64.85% (G:30.85% B:4.07%) 64.47% (G:30.61% B:4.10%) Opponent Winning Chances: 35.15% (G:1.52% B:0.05%) 35.53% (G:1.61% B:0.06%) Cubeless Equities +0.630 +1.240 Cubeful Equities No double: +0.840 (-0.086) ±0.009 (+0.831..+0.848) Double/Take: +0.925 ±0.015 (+0.911..+0.940) Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.075) Best Cube action: Double / Take Rollout details 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves and cube decisions: XG Roller++
Search interval: GiganticDouble Decision confidence: 100.0% Take Decision confidence: 100.0% Duration: 2 days 10 hours 23 minutes eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.211.pre-release
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