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BGonline.org Forums
Meyer Dice Tube
Posted By: Brett Meyer In Response To: Meyer Dice Tube (Stick)
Date: Saturday, 31 July 2010, at 5:35 a.m.
I want to respond to some of Stick's comments and complaints about my product. First, I want to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Stick and all that he's done for the game of backgammon. He's not only an incredible player (one of the most knowledgeable players on the planet), but he's also a super-nice guy! Now, some of his comments and my response:
On my site www.brettmeyer.com I make the statement that the Meyer Dice Tube "speeds up the game by completely eliminating re-rolls due to dice bouncing off the board or over the bar, landing on checkers, or due to cocked dice".
Stick said: Flat out lie. It's true that no dice will bounce off the board nor over the bar nor even land on checkers, but in using this contraption I estimate I cocked my dice at least as many times as I would have using a regular set of dice. I was assisting Bob Koca trying to verify that it was truly random (more on that later) and I started counting how many times I cocked within' how many rolls. I honestly forget the figure compared to the amount of rolls, perhaps Bob remembers, but I believe I exceeded cocking the dice in the tube 10 times in perhaps 200+ rolls? I wasn't trying to cock them, I was flipping it over with one hand and putting on the table exactly as you're supposed to.
I'm actually glad that Stick used the phrase, "Flat out lie", because it may me realize how poorly I worded that statement. Regardless of how the statement reads, it was certainly not my intent to claim that my Dice Tube completely eliminates cocked dice. In fact, if you go to the site (you can click the link in Stick's original post) and scroll down to the section "Rules Concerning Flipping the Tube", you'll see that I explain how to deal with cocked or stacked dice in the tube: "Occasionally (approximately once every 100 or so flips), a die will land cocked in the bottom of the tube, or (very rarely) the dice will land stacked, one on top of the other. If this happens, confirm with your opponent that both dice did not land flat and playable, then flip the tube again."
Over this weekend, I will be editing the statement that Stick has issues with so that it clarifies my intent and so that nobody else thinks I am attempting to mislead them (or lie) or make false claims. What I meant by that statement is that using the tube speeds up the game by completely eliminating re-rolls due to dice bouncing off the board or over the bar, or landing on checkers, and that dice will land cocked much less often than when rolling dice out of a cup, and, when dice indeed land cocked in the tube, the "re-roll" is much faster (i.e., simply flip the tube again, which takes about 1 second, rather than having to retrieve the dice from the board, drop them back into the cup, re-shake them, and roll them back onto the board). Keep in mind that the statement in question was part of several bulleted statements meant to be very brief and be a quick introduction to the product's advantages over the traditional rolling method.
Additionally, my approximation of a re-flip being necessary about every 100 flips has proven to be pretty close. I'm surprised that Stick had to re-flip the tube about 10 times over 200+ rolls. But let's say that you indeed had to re-flip the tube 10 times during a match. How much time would that take?? Total = about 10 seconds.
I also make the statement that using my product "forever eliminates dice hitting a checker, knocking it out of position".
Stick said: Umm...what? Has anyone here ever seen a die knock a checker out of place? Some damn hefty dice are being used or some airy checkers.
That's funny! I agree that it doesn't happen often, but I've seen it happen on several occasions (usually on a wood or slick leather playing surface). And those times that it did happen, there was a disagreement between the players as to where the checker(s) was prior to being hit.
I also make the statement that using my product "completely eliminates any possibility of dice-cheating".
Stick said: LoL!
I'm not sure why Stick finds that statement so funny, because it's absolutely true. Dice cheaters are out there...we all know it, and some of us have witnessed it. These "mechanics" have spent countless hours developing incredible skill at rolling dice in a way to achieve the numbers they need (even using precision dice and a lipped cup...just check YouTube to see some of these guys proudly demonstrate their skills). And even if a cheater is only successful at rolling the numbers he wants 50% of the time, he still gains a huge unfair advantage. I challenge anyone to demonstrate to me that they can control (or even accurately predict) the outcome of the dice using my product (assuming they are flipping the tube in accordance with the established rules explained on my site).
I also make the statement that using my product "guarantees a random roll every time".
Stick said: Does it? Prove it to me then. Nowhere do I see tests of showing that by using the tube will I be assured of random rolling. If I was going to try to market such a product I would have done my homework and put my homework out there for all to see in its glory along with recommendations on how others can verify its randomness also.
Point well taken. In fact, I did indeed do "my homework", and while editing my site I plan on posting some statistical data of probability trials for people to take a look at. As stated on my website (under the "Product History" tab), I have been testing and developing this product since 2005. Since settling on a round tube with the current product dimensions, multiple trials have been conducted to test the randomness generated. In January, 2009, my wife and I spent several days recording data from a trial of 3,000 flips using a tube WITH NO RODS containing two 9/16" precision dice. Even with NO rods installed, randomness was achieved! (Doubles resulted 16.63% with an average pip of 8.171).
We tracked both dice (different colors) separately, to look for any patterns that deviated from 6-sided-cube probabilities. Here is a small bit of the specific data that was collected: Of the 3,000 flips, the red die began the flip showing a [1] 491 times. The results of those 491 red 1's were: 1: 80 times 2: 79 times 3: 84 times 4: 81 times 5: 85 times 6: 82 times
How is this possible with no rods to tumble or spin the dice?? When the tube is "flipped", the dice begin the randomization process immediately by rotating or spinning due to the inertia of the flip itself. Then, they must fall the length of the tube (~9"). This fall is not straight down the tube. Because of the kinetic energy imposed on the dice during the flip, they are contacting each other as well as the tube's interior wall as they fall. Furthermore, once they hit the velcro pad at the bottom of the tube, they bounce, spin, rotate, and eventually settle to a stop. So, if randomness is achieved without any rods installed, why install rods in the tube? The answer is simple...to eliminate any potential suspicion of randomness not being achieved using this device.
My site states: "It is recommended that after you flip the tube for your roll, you place the tube on the table so that it is closer to you than your opponent, so there's never any confusion about whose turn it is. Once the dice have settled and you've made your move, you tap the top of the tube with your hand. Tapping the tube means your play is over (just like tapping a clock button after a move). Your opponent then grabs the tube, flips it over and sets it on the table (closer to him), and play continues."
Stick said: This is a big part of what I hate. Every turn I have to reach clear over to my opponent's side of the board, bring the tube back, and flip it over. You may be thinking "Well, you have to reach for the dice on the board or even on the other side of the board if playing a clocked match, isn't it the same?" No, it is not. Another thing I hate is that as a spectator it's tough to decipher whose turn it is. Sure, the tube may be on someone's side of the board barely, so when I come over I have to figure out what side it's on and that's whose turn it is and now I can see what they're thinking about ... or can I? The great part about dice on a board is that they're dice ... on a board. In plain view for many onlookers to see. If you try to see the dice in the bottom of the tube you end up contorting yourself for the best angle constantly and I can't even imagine if there was a crowd of people trying to watch a match how many of them would be able to follow.
My comment: The procedure for using the tube could not be more simple. It is used on the table, outside of the board, on one end of the board (to one player's right & the other player's left). This leaves the table space at the other end of the board for other items, such as clocks and/or score boards. After you flip the tube for your roll, you place the tube on the table so that it is closer to you than your opponent, so there's never any confusion about whose turn it is. This does not mean that you place the tube really close to you (near the corner of the board), making your opponent have to reach all the way across the board to grab the tube when it's his turn! It's simply placed a LITTLE closer to the player who just flipped it (a few inches is fine). That way, observers know who is on roll, and there will never be a dispute among the players as to whose turn it is.
Stick said: Now we come to the turn ending 'tap'. Again you may be thinking you have to hit the plunger of a clock for your turn to end, along the same lines right? No, perhaps not even the same ballpark. When you hit the plunger of a clock typically you can do it with some force, your hand is letting gravity take its due course and bam, turn over. You can be off by a little bit, your fat hand will make sure to find its mark. With the Meyer tube you have to give this little puffy tap clear on the top of the tube, a light tap lest it fall over, and you're stretching constantly every turn to reach the tube, turn the tube, hit it again to end your turn. It's too much in my opinion.
My comment: Nowhere in the instructions does it require you to give this little puffy tap. Hit the tube with some force if you'd like. It is not fragile, and I've never seen anyone cause the tube to "fall over" by tapping its top. And, in regards to "stretching constantly every turn to reach the tube", consider this: The tube is closer to you than your checkers on your opponent's side of the board, yet I've never heard anyone complain about having to constantly reach over to the other side of the board to move their checkers. Furthermore, the tube is never any further away from you than a clock (if being used), it's just on the opposite end of the board. Keep in mind that, when a clock is in use, tapping the tube is not required since tapping the clock button indicates the end of your turn.
When playing a clocked match, we all know that speed is essential, and time wasted could mean a loss. So let's compare the procedure of playing with a clock using dice & cups to playing with a clock using a Meyer Dice Tube:
1. Dice & Cups: Your opponent has rolled the dice, made his checker play, and hit the clock button...you are now on the clock! You must now reach down and retrieve the 2 dice from the board, but this may take a few seconds since his dice may have landed between checkers but still flat and legally playable...so be careful not to move a checker while trying to pick up the dice. Now you need to drop those dice into your cup. Be careful that both dice make it into the cup (don't drop one into your lap or onto the floor, because now you're really wasting your clock time). Now that the dice are in your cup, make sure you give them at least 3 vigorous shakes. Now make sure you roll the dice out of your cup properly, so that they both rotate after hitting the playing surface. Let's just hope that you don't end up with a cocked die, because then you're wasting much more time by retrieving the dice, dropping them back into your cup, shaking them yet again, and rolling them back onto the board. Now you make your checker play and hit the clock button. 2. Meyer Dice Tube: Your opponent has flipped the tube, made his checker play, and hit the clock button...you are now on the clock! You grab the tube and flip it over, make your checker play and hit the clock button. If you need to re-flip the tube because a die is cocked or the dice are stacked, grab the tube and flip it over again.
Assuming no cocked dice in the above scenarios, method #1 averages 7 seconds, whereas using the tube averages 2 seconds (1 second to reach for the tube, and 1 second to turn it over). A savings of 5 seconds per play is absolutely HUGE!
As with any new product, some people will like it while others will not. Sometimes people are hesitant to try a new method, especially if it differs from what has been done for literally thousands of years! As Phil Simborg (for whom I also have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration) stated in this same thread, people are hesitant to use his baffle boxes, but once they give them a try, they usually love using them and sometimes even demand their use. I personally haven't used a baffle box, but I love the idea.
Hopefully, the information above helps to clarify some of the issues that Stick (and maybe others) have about my product. If anyone has any questions about the Meyer Dice Tube, please don't hesitate to contact me. You can submit questions or comments on my website, or you may email me directly at mrbmeyer@comcast.net.
Brett Meyer
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