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BGonline.org Forums
USBGF Rules Reboot - proposal - public comment welcome
Posted By: Colin Owen In Response To: USBGF Rules Reboot - proposal - public comment welcome (Rich Munitz)
Date: Thursday, 27 July 2017, at 3:42 p.m.
1) "Where I differ here is the premise that rolling from lipped cups when used as intended does not produce random rolls, or produces rolls that are less random than those produced by a baffle box... I don't think there is any reason to believe it is true."
The statement 'rolling from lipped cups when used as intended': what does that mean exactly? A dice mechanic will not be using cups as intended and, if they are a skilled one, this may go completely unnoticed, particularly by players who are less savvy or less alert. I provided a link in another post on this thread as to one such players self claimed ability. For convenience I offer it again:
http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=139185
One such technique is to hold a die against the cup and release it as the other die leaves the cup. This can also be used to give the illusion of shaking, if it is held inside the cup. These are skilled practices of course, and hopefully very rare in the tournament scene, but my point is that an apparently legal shake/roll can be a manipulated one. The only defence against it is to be able to require a baffle box (or, of course, a dice tube or an electronic random dice generator). Even being given the chance to roll for cups or baffle box would provide protection half the time - as long as the box is used to decide the issue!
2) "If a player is not rolling as intended, the remedy is straightforward - ask them to do so. If they are unable or unwilling, call the director. If the player remains incapable, the director can impose a baffle box."
Firstly, there is an issue here, under the prevailing rules, as to what 'rolling as intended' actually means. For example - with regard to shaking - the USBGF and EUBGF/UKBGF Rules require 'vigorous' shaking. If a player shakes the dice up and down 10 times - or doesn't shake at all - then there should be no dispute here. (I say 'should' because I have played a player who definitely did not shake the dice at all but, when I pointed this out to him, claimed that he had!) But if they are shaken up and down twice is that legal? What about a single such shake? What if the dice are merely skid around on the bottom of the cup? In the latter case the size of the dice and the width of the cup may result in little or even no change of position, and most cups do not have a bottom bumper.
As there do seem to be accepted practices with regard to dice shaking, why not put these in the Rules? The only stipulation could remain for 'vigorous' shaking, but more specific actions could be phrased as 'should' rather than 'must', providing a guide to players and staff as to what tends to constitute legality. At present, there is nothing; it's either 'vigorous' (legal) or it isn't (illegal).
Furthermore, the reluctance by many players to actually approach staff about an opponents doubtful rolls - or even to bring it up with that opponent - should not be underestimated. Many players have had bad experiences here. Some find such situations more stressful than others and, for the sake of a peaceful life, they put up with it. Some may feel that such players do not deserve for their opponents shaking/rolling to be corrected; I would vehemently disagree with that, and point out that it becomes a non-issue if a baffle box can be required in the first place. (Or indeed, required by the player after the match has started.)
3) "The other justification would be if proper rolling with cups was difficult. But that isn't the case either. For the most part, once players are shown how to properly shake dice in a cup, it ceases to be an issue. I deal with casual players all the time at the meetup group I run. I show them once and they are fine thereafter."
Once again, the Rules are too vague as to what constitutes 'how to properly shake dice in a cup'. And you can show a (new) player - or suggest to an opponent - how to shake, but that does NOT mean, in my experience and others, that they will form new habits, or ones that last. Jack Edelson's observations, in his first post on this thread, are worth re-reading:
http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=201435
In the USBGF interim proposals posted here, as a result of the Public Consultation, baffle boxes are referred to as 'looming over the board' and as 'non-standard equipment'. Most boxes now seen are transparent, and much less obtrusive as a result. Clocks were non-standard equipment, but many players have got used to them, and baffle boxes have been around much longer than clocks, of course.
"to the best of the organizer’s ability, everyone participating shall have a fair and equal chance..." USBGF Rules
I reiterate that baffle boxes satisfy this best, from the start of the match and throughout and, therefore, that the Rules should encourage Baffle Box Preference by placing that top of the list. Further, that the rules on a valid shake/roll should be made clearer.
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